Question to our localization specialist

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sylvestre sylvestre
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Question to our localization specialist

Hello guys,

Since some of you are localization specialist, I would like to have some
advices.

In the latest release of Scilab, a critical issue in the Polish and
Japanese localizations has been found. This causes a bad exception and
Scinotes to be unusable:
http://bugzilla.scilab.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9475

I was wondering if you know any tool which might check the quality of
the translation regarding the programming language.

For example, in Scilab, I will write:
myString = "I don''t known"

Some translators are not very familiar with specificities of languages.
They might think the double quote might just be a typo and remove it
from the translated string.
This is bad since it breaks the execution since the string is badly
formatted.

Do you know a tool which might here ? (it is hard for us to test Scilab
in all the languages).

Thanks,
Sylvestre

Ihor Rokach Ihor Rokach
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RE: Question to our localization specialist

I think that in general such mistakes are unavoidable. The problem is we
(translators) sometimes have no chance to check even the basic features of a
new Scilab release in advance (there is no such things as release candidate
in this project). Scilab 5.3.2 was released without external testing, so the
result is as it is.

Additionally, in Scilab project there are no "service packs" or patches, to
fix the simplest bugs of the current stable release.

These two tools can be used for fixing all types of bugs in Scilab, not only
those connected with localization.

With best wishes,
==
I.Rokach

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sylvestre Ledru [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 10:48 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Scilab-loc] Question to our localization specialist
>
> Hello guys,
>
> Since some of you are localization specialist, I would like to have some
> advices.
>
> In the latest release of Scilab, a critical issue in the Polish and
> Japanese localizations has been found. This causes a bad exception and
> Scinotes to be unusable:
> http://bugzilla.scilab.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9475
>
> I was wondering if you know any tool which might check the quality of
> the translation regarding the programming language.
>
> For example, in Scilab, I will write:
> myString = "I don''t known"
>
> Some translators are not very familiar with specificities of languages.
> They might think the double quote might just be a typo and remove it
> from the translated string.
> This is bad since it breaks the execution since the string is badly
> formatted.
>
> Do you know a tool which might here ? (it is hard for us to test Scilab
> in all the languages).
>
> Thanks,
> Sylvestre

sylvestre sylvestre
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RE: Question to our localization specialist

Well, Scilab is providing a daily basis nightly builds [1] which are
exactly the same as a normal release except the version name.

About testing, we sent a private email to the people who got a git
access to make sure they check their works. If we did it privately (ie
not on the dev mailing list), it is because the files are named exactly
like the final release. We cannot take the risk of having two Scilab
tarballs with the exact same name.
If you want to be included on that list, please let me know.

Anyway, yes, we might make a beta even of minor releases for such
things... We are doing it for all major releases [2].

Sylvestre

[1]
http://www.scilab.org/fr/communities/developer_zone/scilab_versions/development_version/nightly_builds/
[2] http://cgit.scilab.org/scilab/refs/tags



Le jeudi 19 mai 2011 à 12:15 +0200, Ihor Rokach a écrit :

> I think that in general such mistakes are unavoidable. The problem is we
> (translators) sometimes have no chance to check even the basic features of a
> new Scilab release in advance (there is no such things as release candidate
> in this project). Scilab 5.3.2 was released without external testing, so the
> result is as it is.
>
> Additionally, in Scilab project there are no "service packs" or patches, to
> fix the simplest bugs of the current stable release.
>
> These two tools can be used for fixing all types of bugs in Scilab, not only
> those connected with localization.
>
> With best wishes,
> ==
> I.Rokach
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sylvestre Ledru [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 10:48 AM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [Scilab-loc] Question to our localization specialist
> >
> > Hello guys,
> >
> > Since some of you are localization specialist, I would like to have some
> > advices.
> >
> > In the latest release of Scilab, a critical issue in the Polish and
> > Japanese localizations has been found. This causes a bad exception and
> > Scinotes to be unusable:
> > http://bugzilla.scilab.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9475
> >
> > I was wondering if you know any tool which might check the quality of
> > the translation regarding the programming language.
> >
> > For example, in Scilab, I will write:
> > myString = "I don''t known"
> >
> > Some translators are not very familiar with specificities of languages.
> > They might think the double quote might just be a typo and remove it
> > from the translated string.
> > This is bad since it breaks the execution since the string is badly
> > formatted.
> >
> > Do you know a tool which might here ? (it is hard for us to test Scilab
> > in all the languages).
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Sylvestre
>


Yuri Chornoivan Yuri Chornoivan
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Re: Question to our localization specialist

In reply to this post by sylvestre
написане Thu, 19 May 2011 12:18:45 +0300, sylvestre [via Scilab / Xcos -  
Mailing Lists Archives] <[hidden email]>:

>
>
> Hello guys,
>
> Since some of you are localization specialist, I would like to have some
> advices.
>
> In the latest release of Scilab, a critical issue in the Polish and
> Japanese localizations has been found. This causes a bad exception and
> Scinotes to be unusable:
> http://bugzilla.scilab.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9475
>
> I was wondering if you know any tool which might check the quality of
> the translation regarding the programming language.
>
> For example, in Scilab, I will write:
> myString = "I don''t known"
>
> Some translators are not very familiar with specificities of languages.
> They might think the double quote might just be a typo and remove it
> from the translated string.
> This is bad since it breaks the execution since the string is badly
> formatted.
>
> Do you know a tool which might here ? (it is hard for us to test Scilab
> in all the languages).
>
> Thanks,
> Sylvestre

Hi!

I am not an expert, but there are two tools that are known to me that can  
do the job.

1. KDE Pology
Homepage: http://techbase.kde.org/Localization/Tools/Pology

It is easy to write a sieve that automatically corrects the critical  
mistakes then just run

./posieve.py check-rules --skip-obsolete /path/to/modules/

More on this can be found in Pology documentation:

svn co svn co svn://anonsvn.kde.org/home/kde/trunk/l10n-support/pology

Rules for the KDE teams can be found in /home/kde/trunk/l10n-support/.

2. Translate Toolkit pofilter
Homepage: http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/toolkit/pofilter

The files that will fail the check for Scilab custom rules can be excluded  
 from package.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

In general, KDE English Breakfast Network (  
http://www.englishbreakfastnetwork.org/sanitizer/index.php?component=kde-4.x 
) recommends not to use "don't", "can't", "you're", and other forms with  
apostrophe and prefer "do not", "cannot", "you are". KDE QA Team always  
corrects such mistakes in interface before the release.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for your work,
Yuri
Kenneth Nielsen Kenneth Nielsen
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Re: Question to our localization specialist

In reply to this post by sylvestre
2011/5/19 Sylvestre Ledru <[hidden email]>:
> Hello guys,

Hallo Sylvester

> Since some of you are localization specialist, I would like to have some
> advices.
>
> In the latest release of Scilab, a critical issue in the Polish and
> Japanese localizations has been found. This causes a bad exception and
> Scinotes to be unusable:
> http://bugzilla.scilab.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9475
>
> I was wondering if you know any tool which might check the quality of
> the translation regarding the programming language.
>
> For example, in Scilab, I will write:
> myString = "I don''t known"

I'm not sure if there are any tools that knows the language and can
check it. But if you can define a grep like rule for it, you could
check it with gtgrep (which is another tool from pyg3t). E.g. if the
problem is that when there is a double '' in the msgid then there
should also be one in the msgstr. Then you could grep for that with
the following command:

gtgrep -i "''" -S -s "''" file.po

This will look for any message where the msgid has a '' and the msgstr
has not. So if the command produces an output then you are in trouble.
You could then make a checker script that consist of as many as these
check as you like for each language file.

In the other thread you were asking about documentation and use cases.
I'm afraid that at this point there is no other documentation than the
--help messages in the commands.

In any case, the tools that Yuri mentions seems to be able to
something similar and with a similar amount of work and they seem
somewhat more established, so that is probably the way you want to go.

Regards Kenneth

> Some translators are not very familiar with specificities of languages.
> They might think the double quote might just be a typo and remove it
> from the translated string.
> This is bad since it breaks the execution since the string is badly
> formatted.
>
> Do you know a tool which might here ? (it is hard for us to test Scilab
> in all the languages).
>
> Thanks,
> Sylvestre
>
>
Ihor Rokach Ihor Rokach
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RE: Question to our localization specialist

In reply to this post by sylvestre
Night builds are not patches anyway. Imagine downloading and installation
full M$ Windows just to correct a single bad character in one string.

In my university Scilab is installed on 20+ computers in the student lab.
After that we have installed several toolboxes via Atoms. So, to correct a
single line bug using night build somebody needs to reinstall everything.

Additionally, nobody knows when each bug (especially connected with
localization) is fixed in a night build.

With best wishes,
==
I.Rokach

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sylvestre Ledru [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 12:48 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Scilab-loc] Question to our localization specialist
>
> Well, Scilab is providing a daily basis nightly builds [1] which are
> exactly the same as a normal release except the version name.
>
> About testing, we sent a private email to the people who got a git
> access to make sure they check their works. If we did it privately (ie
> not on the dev mailing list), it is because the files are named exactly
> like the final release. We cannot take the risk of having two Scilab
> tarballs with the exact same name.
> If you want to be included on that list, please let me know.
>
> Anyway, yes, we might make a beta even of minor releases for such
> things... We are doing it for all major releases [2].
>
> Sylvestre
>
> [1]
> http://www.scilab.org/fr/communities/developer_zone/scilab_versions/develo
> pment_version/nightly_builds/
> [2] http://cgit.scilab.org/scilab/refs/tags
>
>
>
> Le jeudi 19 mai 2011 à 12:15 +0200, Ihor Rokach a écrit :
> > I think that in general such mistakes are unavoidable. The problem is we
> > (translators) sometimes have no chance to check even the basic features
> of a
> > new Scilab release in advance (there is no such things as release
> candidate
> > in this project). Scilab 5.3.2 was released without external testing, so
> the
> > result is as it is.
> >
> > Additionally, in Scilab project there are no "service packs" or patches,
> to
> > fix the simplest bugs of the current stable release.
> >
> > These two tools can be used for fixing all types of bugs in Scilab, not
> only
> > those connected with localization.
> >
> > With best wishes,
> > ==
> > I.Rokach
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Sylvestre Ledru [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 10:48 AM
> > > To: [hidden email]
> > > Subject: [Scilab-loc] Question to our localization specialist
> > >
> > > Hello guys,
> > >
> > > Since some of you are localization specialist, I would like to have
> some
> > > advices.
> > >
> > > In the latest release of Scilab, a critical issue in the Polish and
> > > Japanese localizations has been found. This causes a bad exception and
> > > Scinotes to be unusable:
> > > http://bugzilla.scilab.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9475
> > >
> > > I was wondering if you know any tool which might check the quality of
> > > the translation regarding the programming language.
> > >
> > > For example, in Scilab, I will write:
> > > myString = "I don''t known"
> > >
> > > Some translators are not very familiar with specificities of
> languages.
> > > They might think the double quote might just be a typo and remove it
> > > from the translated string.
> > > This is bad since it breaks the execution since the string is badly
> > > formatted.
> > >
> > > Do you know a tool which might here ? (it is hard for us to test
> Scilab
> > > in all the languages).
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Sylvestre
> >

sylvestre sylvestre
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RE: Question to our localization specialists

Le jeudi 19 mai 2011 à 14:00 +0200, Ihor Rokach a écrit :
> Night builds are not patches anyway. Imagine downloading and installation
> full M$ Windows just to correct a single bad character in one string.
It is why we started the "Binary patching" project in the context of the
GSoC:
http://www.scilab.org/projects/development/google

> In my university Scilab is installed on 20+ computers in the student lab.
> After that we have installed several toolboxes via Atoms. So, to correct a
> single line bug using night build somebody needs to reinstall everything.
>
> Additionally, nobody knows when each bug (especially connected with
> localization) is fixed in a night build.
I disagree. You will find all the information in the bug report (I agree
that you have to know that there is a bug report).

Sylvestre


Rodolfo Ribeiro Gomes Rodolfo Ribeiro Gomes
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Re: Question to our localization specialist

In reply to this post by Yuri Chornoivan
Other tests can be done by using

$ msgfmt -cvo /dev/null file.po



2011/5/19 Yuri Chornoivan <[hidden email]>:

> написане Thu, 19 May 2011 12:18:45 +0300, sylvestre [via Scilab / Xcos -
> Mailing Lists Archives] <[hidden email]>:
>
>>
>>
>> Hello guys,
>>
>> Since some of you are localization specialist, I would like to have some
>> advices.
>>
>> In the latest release of Scilab, a critical issue in the Polish and
>> Japanese localizations has been found. This causes a bad exception and
>> Scinotes to be unusable:
>> http://bugzilla.scilab.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9475
>>
>> I was wondering if you know any tool which might check the quality of
>> the translation regarding the programming language.
>>
>> For example, in Scilab, I will write:
>> myString = "I don''t known"
>>
>> Some translators are not very familiar with specificities of languages.
>> They might think the double quote might just be a typo and remove it
>> from the translated string.
>> This is bad since it breaks the execution since the string is badly
>> formatted.
>>
>> Do you know a tool which might here ? (it is hard for us to test Scilab
>> in all the languages).
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Sylvestre
> Hi!
>
> I am not an expert, but there are two tools that are known to me that can
> do the job.
>
> 1. KDE Pology
> Homepage: http://techbase.kde.org/Localization/Tools/Pology
>
> It is easy to write a sieve that automatically corrects the critical
> mistakes then just run
>
> ./posieve.py check-rules --skip-obsolete /path/to/modules/
>
> More on this can be found in Pology documentation:
>
> svn co svn co svn://anonsvn.kde.org/home/kde/trunk/l10n-support/pology
>
> Rules for the KDE teams can be found in /home/kde/trunk/l10n-support/.
>
> 2. Translate Toolkit pofilter
> Homepage: http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/toolkit/pofilter
>
> The files that will fail the check for Scilab custom rules can be excluded
>  from package.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> In general, KDE English Breakfast Network (
> http://www.englishbreakfastnetwork.org/sanitizer/index.php?component=kde-4.x
> ) recommends not to use "don't", "can't", "you're", and other forms with
> apostrophe and prefer "do not", "cannot", "you are". KDE QA Team always
> corrects such mistakes in interface before the release.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Thanks for your work,
> Yuri
>
> ________________________________
> View this message in context: Re: Question to our localization specialist
> Sent from the Scilab localization - Mailing Lists Archives mailing list
> archive at Nabble.com.
>
Yuri Chornoivan Yuri Chornoivan
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Re: Question to our localization specialist

In reply to this post by Yuri Chornoivan
Almost forgot about this tool from LyX:

http://www.lyx.org/trac/browser/lyx-devel/trunk/po/pocheck.pl

It is lightweight and can be easily tweaked to improve QA (although some false positive warnings can occur).
sylvestre sylvestre
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Re: Question to our localization specialist

Thanks to all of you for all these tools! I will have a look.

Sylvestre


Le jeudi 19 mai 2011 à 23:47 -0700, Yuri Chornoivan a écrit :

> Almost forgot about this tool from LyX:
>
> http://www.lyx.org/trac/browser/lyx-devel/trunk/po/pocheck.pl
>
> It is lightweight and can be easily tweaked to improve QA (although some
> false positive warnings can occur).
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://mailinglists.scilab.org/Question-to-our-localization-specialist-tp2960545p2964573.html
> Sent from the Scilab localization - Mailing Lists Archives mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


sylvestre sylvestre
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Re: Question to our localization specialist

In reply to this post by Yuri Chornoivan
Hello guys,

So, here is a feedback on what I am trying to implement.
Following an idea of Vincent C, I split the string coming from Scilab
codes with the one coming from C, C++ and Java.
This because of the too many differences between the two worlds.

The modification is available here:
http://codereview.scilab.org/#change,4101
The result has not been accepted yet into the git repository (because we
are considering to do an early release for the polish and japanese
bugs).

Strings have been properly dispatched between the two modules.

After that, I used the script proposed by Yuri and extended to detect
and fix Scilab localization errors. This script is available here:
http://codereview.scilab.org/#change,4113
Thanks Yuri. It helped a lot.

Finally, I ran this script and updated the localization files:
http://codereview.scilab.org/#change,4112

Now, once new modules are accepted into launchpad, we should have way
less such errors.

I will also use the tool "POFileConsistency" from gettext-lint which
checks over all the localization files the inconsistencies over
translations.

Thanks for your feedbacks and suggestions, it helped a lot,
Sylvestre

Le jeudi 19 mai 2011 à 23:47 -0700, Yuri Chornoivan a écrit :

> Almost forgot about this tool from LyX:
>
> http://www.lyx.org/trac/browser/lyx-devel/trunk/po/pocheck.pl
>
> It is lightweight and can be easily tweaked to improve QA (although some
> false positive warnings can occur).
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://mailinglists.scilab.org/Question-to-our-localization-specialist-tp2960545p2964573.html
> Sent from the Scilab localization - Mailing Lists Archives mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


Rui Hirokawa-2 Rui Hirokawa-2
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Re: Question to our localization specialist

In reply to this post by sylvestre
Hello,

I found a critical issue in SciNotes of Scilab 5.3.1.
I think it is already resolved in Scilab 5.3.2.
Bug #9475 is reported for the Polish localized version.
It is also an issue in Japanese version ?

The consistency check for the format is always difficult problem.
For the localization project of PHP (http://php.net/docs.php)
which I have been working for, the DocBook XML validator/checker is used.
For the detail of project, please look at,
  https://doc.php.net/php/dochowto/

The up-to-date check for the localized version is also important
because the original english version is always updated.

For the PHP localization, the changes for the english version is
summarized in the web site.

https://doc.php.net/php/ja/revcheck.php?p=files&user=hirokawa

Rui

(2011/05/19 17:48), Sylvestre Ledru wrote:

> Hello guys,
>
> Since some of you are localization specialist, I would like to have some
> advices.
>
> In the latest release of Scilab, a critical issue in the Polish and
> Japanese localizations has been found. This causes a bad exception and
> Scinotes to be unusable:
> http://bugzilla.scilab.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9475
>
> I was wondering if you know any tool which might check the quality of
> the translation regarding the programming language.
>
> For example, in Scilab, I will write:
> myString = "I don''t known"
>
> Some translators are not very familiar with specificities of languages.
> They might think the double quote might just be a typo and remove it
> from the translated string.
> This is bad since it breaks the execution since the string is badly
> formatted.
>
> Do you know a tool which might here ? (it is hard for us to test Scilab
> in all the languages).
>
> Thanks,
> Sylvestre
>
>

sylvestre sylvestre
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Re: Question to our localization specialist

Le mercredi 25 mai 2011 à 22:47 +0900, Rui Hirokawa a écrit :
> Hello,
>
> I found a critical issue in SciNotes of Scilab 5.3.1.
> I think it is already resolved in Scilab 5.3.2.
> Bug #9475 is reported for the Polish localized version.
> It is also an issue in Japanese version ?
Looks like it.
We are thinking about releasing a 5.3.3 version just to fix it...

Sylvestre