Settings for the scilab localization in LaunchPad Translations

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Kenneth Nielsen Kenneth Nielsen
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Settings for the scilab localization in LaunchPad Translations

Hallo

I am interested in starting to translate Scilab into Danish and I had
a look at the project in Launchpad and I noticed a few things I think
might be set up better. I hope you will consider these humble
suggestions.

I Launchpad there are four settings for translation permissions,
"Open", "Structured", "Restricted" and "Closed". For Scilab it is set
to "Structured", which means that if there is a team or person
assigned to a language within the group that is assigned to the entire
translation*, the only that team or group can make contributions and
if there isn't assigned a team of person to a language within that
group, then it is open to everyone. The thing is, that there is no
group assigned to the translation, which means that the defacto
results is that it is open, which I am guessing wasn't the purpose
since you set it to "Structured". If you value quality in the
translation, then it should indeed be set to "Structured" or
"Restricted" and assign the translation to a group. You could off
course form a Scilab specific group on launchpad and assign the
translation to that group, but there is actually already one set up
for exactly this purpose, the ~launchpad-translators group. This group
has the purpose of translation all the independent projects on
Launchpad and therefore already has language teams with active
translators set up.

So in short my suggestion is to assign the translation of Scilab to
the ~launchpad-translators group and ask your existing translators to
join the respective language teams within that group.

When it comes to deciding between "Structured" and "Restricted" then
it is really a matter of where you priority lie between quantity and
quality when it comes to how many languages you cover. The difference
concerns the languages for which there is no person or team assigned
within the group. With "Structured" permissions the translations for
that language will then be open to everyone, with "Restricted"
permissions it is closed to all. I would suggest making it
"Restricted" since that ensures maximum quality.

Regards Kenneth Nielsen

* Launchpad makes the distinction between translation groups and
teams. Groups are assigned to the task of localizing into all
languages and consist of teams that localize into a single language ;)
Yuri Chornoivan Yuri Chornoivan
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Re: Settings for the scilab localization in LaunchPad Translations

This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
Hi,
 
написане Wed, 27 Apr 2011 19:15:03 +0300, Kenneth Nielsen [via Scilab / Xcos - Mailing Lists Archives] <[hidden email]>:
 
> So in short my suggestion is to assign the translation of Scilab to
> the ~launchpad-translators group and ask your existing translators to
> join the respective language teams within that group.
 
Please do not do this. Some of ~launchpad-translators groups are dead and cannot be reached (at least Ukrainian one). It will be very hard for me to maintain the translation if you do so.
 
There is no reason to restrict open project translation by just Ubuntu users or Ubuntu teams. I have no reasonable proof that the quality of these group translations (at least in case of Ukrainian and Russian) are in any kind better than the quality of open translations.
 
Just my 5 cents.
 
Best regards,
Yuri
sylvestre sylvestre
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Re: Settings for the scilab localization in LaunchPad Translations

In reply to this post by Kenneth Nielsen
Hi

Thanks for your interest. I agree we should improve that. I will get back to you on this once i come back in Paris.

Cheers
--
Envoyé de mon téléphone Android avec K-9 Mail. Excusez la brièveté.


Kenneth Nielsen <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Hallo I am interested in starting to translate Scilab into Danish and I had a look at the project in Launchpad and I noticed a few things I think might be set up better. I hope you will consider these humble suggestions. I Launchpad there are four settings for translation permissions, "Open", "Structured", "Restricted" and "Closed". For Scilab it is set to "Structured", which means that if there is a team or person assigned to a language within the group that is assigned to the entire translation*, the only that team or group can make contributions and if there isn't assigned a team of person to a language within that group, then it is open to everyone. The thing is, that there is no group assigned to the translation, which means that the defacto results is that it is open, which I am guessing wasn't the purpose since you set it to "Structured". If you value quality in the translation, then it should indeed be set to "Structured" or "Restricted" and assign the translation to a group. You could off course form a Scilab specific group on launchpad and assign the translation to that group, but there is actually already one set up for exactly this purpose, the ~launchpad-translators group. This group has the purpose of translation all the independent projects on Launchpad and therefore already has language teams with active translators set up. So in short my suggestion is to assign the translation of Scilab to the ~launchpad-translators group and ask your existing translators to join the respective language teams within that group. When it comes to deciding between "Structured" and "Restricted" then it is really a matter of where you priority lie between quantity and quality when it comes to how many languages you cover. The difference concerns the languages for which there is no person or team assigned within the group. With "Structured" permissions the translations for that language will then be open to everyone, with "Restricted" permissions it is closed to all. I would suggest making it "Restricted" since that ensures maximum quality. Regards Kenneth Nielsen * Launchpad makes the distinction between translation groups and teams. Groups are assigned to the task of localizing into all languages and consist of teams that localize into a single language ;)
sylvestre sylvestre
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Re: Settings for the scilab localization in LaunchPad Translations

In reply to this post by Kenneth Nielsen
Hello Kenneth,

Le mercredi 27 avril 2011 à 18:14 +0200, Kenneth Nielsen a écrit :
> Hallo
[...]

> So in short my suggestion is to assign the translation of Scilab to
> the ~launchpad-translators group and ask your existing translators to
> join the respective language teams within that group.
OK. Thanks for the suggestions. I just changed to Restricted +
"Translation group" to "Launchpad Translators".

> When it comes to deciding between "Structured" and "Restricted" then
> it is really a matter of where you priority lie between quantity and
> quality when it comes to how many languages you cover. The difference
> concerns the languages for which there is no person or team assigned
> within the group. With "Structured" permissions the translations for
> that language will then be open to everyone, with "Restricted"
> permissions it is closed to all. I would suggest making it
> "Restricted" since that ensures maximum quality.
At first, we were more interested in the quantity but for now, we have plenty of translations
and I believe you are right, it is time to switch it to Restricted.

Do you think I should contact the launchpad translators group or they
will be informed ?

Sylvestre


sylvestre sylvestre
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Re: Settings for the scilab localization in LaunchPad Translations

In reply to this post by Kenneth Nielsen
I am copying and pasting the email of Yuri which has been stuck in the
moderation queue (and which I just saw)

Kenneth, what is your opinion on this ?
I am not familiar enough with launchpad/translation to judge here...

Hi,

написане Wed, 27 Apr 2011 19:15:03 +0300, Kenneth Nielsen [via
Scilab /  
Xcos - Mailing Lists Archives]  
<[hidden email]>:

> So in short my suggestion is to assign the translation of Scilab to
> the ~launchpad-translators group and ask your existing translators to
> join the respective language teams within that group.

Please do not do this. Some of ~launchpad-translators groups are dead
and  
cannot be reached (at least Ukrainian one). It will be very hard for me
to  
maintain the translation if you do so.

There is no reason to restrict open project translation by just
Ubuntu  
users or Ubuntu teams. I have no reasonable proof that the quality of  
these group translations (at least in case of Ukrainian and Russian)
are  
in any kind better than the quality of open translations.

Just my 5 cents.

Best regards,
Yuri

Le mercredi 27 avril 2011 à 18:14 +0200, Kenneth Nielsen a écrit :

> Hallo
>
> I am interested in starting to translate Scilab into Danish and I had
> a look at the project in Launchpad and I noticed a few things I think
> might be set up better. I hope you will consider these humble
> suggestions.
>
> I Launchpad there are four settings for translation permissions,
> "Open", "Structured", "Restricted" and "Closed". For Scilab it is set
> to "Structured", which means that if there is a team or person
> assigned to a language within the group that is assigned to the entire
> translation*, the only that team or group can make contributions and
> if there isn't assigned a team of person to a language within that
> group, then it is open to everyone. The thing is, that there is no
> group assigned to the translation, which means that the defacto
> results is that it is open, which I am guessing wasn't the purpose
> since you set it to "Structured". If you value quality in the
> translation, then it should indeed be set to "Structured" or
> "Restricted" and assign the translation to a group. You could off
> course form a Scilab specific group on launchpad and assign the
> translation to that group, but there is actually already one set up
> for exactly this purpose, the ~launchpad-translators group. This group
> has the purpose of translation all the independent projects on
> Launchpad and therefore already has language teams with active
> translators set up.
>
> So in short my suggestion is to assign the translation of Scilab to
> the ~launchpad-translators group and ask your existing translators to
> join the respective language teams within that group.
>
> When it comes to deciding between "Structured" and "Restricted" then
> it is really a matter of where you priority lie between quantity and
> quality when it comes to how many languages you cover. The difference
> concerns the languages for which there is no person or team assigned
> within the group. With "Structured" permissions the translations for
> that language will then be open to everyone, with "Restricted"
> permissions it is closed to all. I would suggest making it
> "Restricted" since that ensures maximum quality.
>
> Regards Kenneth Nielsen
>
> * Launchpad makes the distinction between translation groups and
> teams. Groups are assigned to the task of localizing into all
> languages and consist of teams that localize into a single language ;)


Kenneth Nielsen Kenneth Nielsen
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Re: Settings for the scilab localization in LaunchPad Translations

In reply to this post by sylvestre
Hallo

2011/5/4 Sylvestre Ledru <[hidden email]>:

> Hello Kenneth,
>
> Le mercredi 27 avril 2011 à 18:14 +0200, Kenneth Nielsen a écrit :
>> Hallo
> [...]
>
>> So in short my suggestion is to assign the translation of Scilab to
>> the ~launchpad-translators group and ask your existing translators to
>> join the respective language teams within that group.
> OK. Thanks for the suggestions. I just changed to Restricted +
> "Translation group" to "Launchpad Translators".

Great

>> When it comes to deciding between "Structured" and "Restricted" then
>> it is really a matter of where you priority lie between quantity and
>> quality when it comes to how many languages you cover. The difference
>> concerns the languages for which there is no person or team assigned
>> within the group. With "Structured" permissions the translations for
>> that language will then be open to everyone, with "Restricted"
>> permissions it is closed to all. I would suggest making it
>> "Restricted" since that ensures maximum quality.
> At first, we were more interested in the quantity but for now, we have plenty of translations
> and I believe you are right, it is time to switch it to Restricted.
>
> Do you think I should contact the launchpad translators group or they
> will be informed ?

I asked David Planella (who knows such thing) and his answer was that
it is probably a good idea. It will also give you an opportunity to
advertise a little for your project to get even more translators on
board.

Regards Kenneth
Kenneth Nielsen Kenneth Nielsen
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Re: Settings for the scilab localization in LaunchPad Translations

In reply to this post by sylvestre
Hallo Sylvester

2011/5/4 Sylvestre Ledru <[hidden email]>:
> I am copying and pasting the email of Yuri which has been stuck in the
> moderation queue (and which I just saw)
>
> Kenneth, what is your opinion on this ?
> I am not familiar enough with launchpad/translation to judge here...

Yes I'll try an answer.

> Hi,
>
> написане Wed, 27 Apr 2011 19:15:03 +0300, Kenneth Nielsen [via
> Scilab /
> Xcos - Mailing Lists Archives]
> <[hidden email]>:
>
>> So in short my suggestion is to assign the translation of Scilab to
>> the ~launchpad-translators group and ask your existing translators to
>> join the respective language teams within that group.
>
> Please do not do this. Some of ~launchpad-translators groups are dead
> and
> cannot be reached (at least Ukrainian one). It will be very hard for me
> to
> maintain the translation if you do so.

It is true that it can happen that a Lauchpad translators team run out
of steam and become inactive. However, the appropriate way to solve
that then is to try and take over the team and revive it (which Yuri
actually is doing now). Please consider this: The launchpad
translators group is meant to be a gathering project for all the
independent projects in Launchpad, so if language team cannot be
maintained there, then it is unlikely that it can around just at
single project. So if you want to assign a group to your translation
to provide them with the opportunity to make translations of higher
quality, then surely this group is the best bet.

> There is no reason to restrict open project translation by just
> Ubuntu
> users or Ubuntu teams. I have no reasonable proof that the quality of
> these group translations (at least in case of Ukrainian and Russian)
> are
> in any kind better than the quality of open translations.

Well first off, there a few things that need to be cleared up. The
Launchpad translators group has nothing to do with Ubuntu nor is it
specific to Ubuntu users. Launchpad is a generic code hosting site
with support for translation, specification and bug tracking and
answers. Ubuntu is just one of the projects being hosted on this site,
even though it certainly is the biggest. That is also the reason why
it has its own translators-group with its own translation teams, which
has nothing to do with launchpad-translators. Just to re-iterate,
lauchpad-translators is created for all the "little" independent
projects in LP and being a member of that group only requires that you
have a LP-account, NOT that you are a Ubunt user.

As for quality. You are correct that restricting translations to a
group like launchpad translators, does not _guarantee_ that the
translations will become of high quality, but it does give the teams,
that are willing to make an effort to produce the high quality
translations, the tools (and control) to make that possible, tools
that don't have if the translations is open.

Regards Kenneth

>
> Just my 5 cents.
>
> Best regards,
> Yuri
>
> Le mercredi 27 avril 2011 à 18:14 +0200, Kenneth Nielsen a écrit :
>> Hallo
>>
>> I am interested in starting to translate Scilab into Danish and I had
>> a look at the project in Launchpad and I noticed a few things I think
>> might be set up better. I hope you will consider these humble
>> suggestions.
>>
>> I Launchpad there are four settings for translation permissions,
>> "Open", "Structured", "Restricted" and "Closed". For Scilab it is set
>> to "Structured", which means that if there is a team or person
>> assigned to a language within the group that is assigned to the entire
>> translation*, the only that team or group can make contributions and
>> if there isn't assigned a team of person to a language within that
>> group, then it is open to everyone. The thing is, that there is no
>> group assigned to the translation, which means that the defacto
>> results is that it is open, which I am guessing wasn't the purpose
>> since you set it to "Structured". If you value quality in the
>> translation, then it should indeed be set to "Structured" or
>> "Restricted" and assign the translation to a group. You could off
>> course form a Scilab specific group on launchpad and assign the
>> translation to that group, but there is actually already one set up
>> for exactly this purpose, the ~launchpad-translators group. This group
>> has the purpose of translation all the independent projects on
>> Launchpad and therefore already has language teams with active
>> translators set up.
>>
>> So in short my suggestion is to assign the translation of Scilab to
>> the ~launchpad-translators group and ask your existing translators to
>> join the respective language teams within that group.
>>
>> When it comes to deciding between "Structured" and "Restricted" then
>> it is really a matter of where you priority lie between quantity and
>> quality when it comes to how many languages you cover. The difference
>> concerns the languages for which there is no person or team assigned
>> within the group. With "Structured" permissions the translations for
>> that language will then be open to everyone, with "Restricted"
>> permissions it is closed to all. I would suggest making it
>> "Restricted" since that ensures maximum quality.
>>
>> Regards Kenneth Nielsen
>>
>> * Launchpad makes the distinction between translation groups and
>> teams. Groups are assigned to the task of localizing into all
>> languages and consist of teams that localize into a single language ;)
>
>
>
Yuri Chornoivan Yuri Chornoivan
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Re: Settings for the scilab localization in LaunchPad Translations

Hi again,

написане Thu, 05 May 2011 14:09:33 +0300, Kenneth Nielsen [via Scilab /  
Xcos - Mailing Lists Archives]  
<[hidden email]>:

> Hallo Sylvester
>
> 2011/5/4 Sylvestre Ledru <[hidden email]>:
>> I am copying and pasting the email of Yuri which has been stuck in the
>> moderation queue (and which I just saw)
>>
>> Kenneth, what is your opinion on this ?
>> I am not familiar enough with launchpad/translation to judge here...
>
> Yes I'll try an answer.
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> написане Wed, 27 Apr 2011 19:15:03 +0300, Kenneth Nielsen [via
>> Scilab /
>> Xcos - Mailing Lists Archives]
>> <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> So in short my suggestion is to assign the translation of Scilab to
>>> the ~launchpad-translators group and ask your existing translators to
>>> join the respective language teams within that group.
>>
>> Please do not do this. Some of ~launchpad-translators groups are dead
>> and
>> cannot be reached (at least Ukrainian one). It will be very hard for me
>> to
>> maintain the translation if you do so.
>
> It is true that it can happen that a Lauchpad translators team run out
> of steam and become inactive. However, the appropriate way to solve
> that then is to try and take over the team and revive it (which Yuri
> actually is doing now).

That is not true. I do not want to revive the team. I just want to adapt  
to the new strict requirements of Scilab translation.

> Please consider this: The launchpad
> translators group is meant to be a gathering project for all the
> independent projects in Launchpad, so if language team cannot be
> maintained there, then it is unlikely that it can around just at
> single project.

This gathering is absolutely senseless. There is not much common things  
between Chromium, ADempiere ERP, and Scilab.

> So if you want to assign a group to your translation
> to provide them with the opportunity to make translations of higher
> quality, then surely this group is the best bet.

It is not true. The parent groups of these groups (Ubuntu translators) is  
of higher quality and quantity.

>> There is no reason to restrict open project translation by just
>> Ubuntu
>> users or Ubuntu teams. I have no reasonable proof that the quality of
>> these group translations (at least in case of Ukrainian and Russian)
>> are
>> in any kind better than the quality of open translations.
>
> Well first off, there a few things that need to be cleared up. The
> Launchpad translators group has nothing to do with Ubuntu nor is it
> specific to Ubuntu users. Launchpad is a generic code hosting site
> with support for translation, specification and bug tracking and
> answers. Ubuntu is just one of the projects being hosted on this site,
> even though it certainly is the biggest. That is also the reason why
> it has its own translators-group with its own translation teams, which
> has nothing to do with launchpad-translators. Just to re-iterate,
> lauchpad-translators is created for all the "little" independent
> projects in LP and being a member of that group only requires that you
> have a LP-account, NOT that you are a Ubunt user.

That is not true again. Consider Danish translation team.

https://launchpad.net/~lp-l10n-da/+members#active

It consists almost exclusively (I am not sure about 1 member) of Ubuntu  
translation team members.

> As for quality. You are correct that restricting translations to a
> group like launchpad translators, does not _guarantee_ that the
> translations will become of high quality, but it does give the teams,
> that are willing to make an effort to produce the high quality
> translations, the tools (and control) to make that possible, tools
> that don't have if the translations is open.

Let's see the stats. LP-translators is a confederation of 42 teams. These  
teams have to manage 276 projects. Most of the teams consist of 3-4  
members (taking into account even people with zero karma).

What quality control are you talking about? They cannot even review the  
propositions.

This can be clearly seen by the mailing list:

https://lists.launchpad.net/launchpad-translators/

There are no messages for months. LiVES developer asked them to give LiVES  
new translations:

https://lists.launchpad.net/launchpad-translators/msg00136.html

and... The only 100% translation was given by the guy who did not even  
know about LP-translators.

https://translations.launchpad.net/lives/trunk/+pots/lives

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's analyze the current state of affairs.

Scilab top contributors

Rui Hirokawa 1450 points  - not a member of lp-translators
Fido 900 points - member of lp-translators
Yuri Chornoivan 707 points - not a member of lp-translators
Ondrej Staš 701 points - not a member of lp-translators
Carml 700 points - member of lp-translators

Well, I propose that Kenneth (1 point of Scilab karma) send a message to  
all the current Scilab translators with the larger Scilab karma and  
propose them to join lp-translators.

To be serious, if you do not want to loose half (at least) of Scilab  
translators, please change the policy to "Structured" or "Open".  
LP-translators cannot give nor quantity, neither quality of translations,  
but the current translators can.

If you are still not sure, please create "Scilab translators" and approve  
its members by yourself or give open permissions. Restrictions like  
"lp-translators" do not work. It can be easily seen on the Chromium  
example. These restrictions just narrow down the number of translators  
with no quality advantage.

Best regards,
Yuri
Ihor Rokach Ihor Rokach
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Re: Settings for the scilab localization in LaunchPad Translations

Yuri,

I agree with you totally. Most of the Open Source translation projects
were, are and will be the one-man ones. Idea of creation of so called
'translation groups'  maybe could be useful for some projects,
however, is totally senseless in the Scilab case. Actually it adds
nothing to the quality of translation of Scilab or even decrease it
because it kills effort of causal translators which help us by
correction of one or two strings only. These people need to have easy
and simple access to the translation interface, otherwise they simply
will not participate in the translation process.

I know examples of the projects with completely restrict-less access
to the translation interface which are extremely successful. See for
example SMath Studio (freeware Mathcad clone) translation interface at

http://smath.info/translator/

If Launchpad team do not understand this it would be better for
Sylvestre to move Scilab translation to the another place.

--Igor
sylvestre sylvestre
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Re: Settings for the scilab localization in LaunchPadTranslations

In reply to this post by Yuri Chornoivan
Le jeudi 05 mai 2011 à 08:06 -0700, Yuri Chornoivan a écrit :
>
> To be serious, if you do not want to loose half (at least) of Scilab
>  
> translators, please change the policy to "Structured" or "Open".  
> LP-translators cannot give nor quantity, neither quality of
> translations,  
> but the current translators can.
OK, thanks for your feedback.
Until we sorted this out, I rollback to "Structured" like it use to be.

Sylvestre


Rodolfo Ribeiro Gomes Rodolfo Ribeiro Gomes
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Re: Settings for the scilab localization in LaunchPadTranslations

2011/5/5 Sylvestre Ledru <[hidden email]>:
> Until we sorted this out, I rollback to "Structured" like it use to be.

Thank you. I know Brazilian Ubuntu/TP translation team has very bad
quality work at the moment: incoherence, some bad mistranslations,
mispells, hurry over quality.

I've been working hard the last two years in order to control the
quality and coherence here for portuguese brasilian.

Att,
Rodolfo
Kenneth Nielsen Kenneth Nielsen
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Re: Settings for the scilab localization in LaunchPad Translations

In reply to this post by Yuri Chornoivan
>>>
>>>> So in short my suggestion is to assign the translation of Scilab to
>>>> the ~launchpad-translators group and ask your existing translators to
>>>> join the respective language teams within that group.
>>>
>>> Please do not do this. Some of ~launchpad-translators groups are dead
>>> and
>>> cannot be reached (at least Ukrainian one). It will be very hard for me
>>> to
>>> maintain the translation if you do so.
>>
>> It is true that it can happen that a Lauchpad translators team run out
>> of steam and become inactive. However, the appropriate way to solve
>> that then is to try and take over the team and revive it (which Yuri
>> actually is doing now).
> That is not true. I do not want to revive the team. I just want to adapt
> to the new strict requirements of Scilab translation.

I didn't say that you _wanted_ to do it or were happy with, I simply
said that you were in the process of doing it. The last we spoke in
IRC we discussed the possibility of you assuming leadership of the
team, purely for the purpose of translating scilab through that team
and the passing leadership on whenever someone showed up. And you
seemed willing to do that. If I misunderstood or expressed myself
imprecisely earlier I apologize.

>> Please consider this: The launchpad
>> translators group is meant to be a gathering project for all the
>> independent projects in Launchpad, so if language team cannot be
>> maintained there, then it is unlikely that it can around just at
>> single project.
>
> This gathering is absolutely senseless. There is not much common things
> between Chromium, ADempiere ERP, and Scilab.

The gathering is not one of projects that have things in common, but
of translators who work on small projects. This way translators can
collaborate across project boundaries. So if I do this translations,
then when I'm done, I will ask someone on the team to proofread it and
someone who does not have anything to do with Scilab translations
will, because then later I will proofread something for him.

>> So if you want to assign a group to your translation
>> to provide them with the opportunity to make translations of higher
>> quality, then surely this group is the best bet.
>
> It is not true. The parent groups of these groups (Ubuntu translators) is
> of higher quality and quantity.

Once again. Ubuntu translators is not structurally, or with the regard
to purpose, the parent group for the launchpad translators group.

>>> There is no reason to restrict open project translation by just
>>> Ubuntu
>>> users or Ubuntu teams. I have no reasonable proof that the quality of
>>> these group translations (at least in case of Ukrainian and Russian)
>>> are
>>> in any kind better than the quality of open translations.
>>
>> Well first off, there a few things that need to be cleared up. The
>> Launchpad translators group has nothing to do with Ubuntu nor is it
>> specific to Ubuntu users. Launchpad is a generic code hosting site
>> with support for translation, specification and bug tracking and
>> answers. Ubuntu is just one of the projects being hosted on this site,
>> even though it certainly is the biggest. That is also the reason why
>> it has its own translators-group with its own translation teams, which
>> has nothing to do with launchpad-translators. Just to re-iterate,
>> lauchpad-translators is created for all the "little" independent
>> projects in LP and being a member of that group only requires that you
>> have a LP-account, NOT that you are a Ubunt user.
> That is not true again. Consider Danish translation team.
>
> https://launchpad.net/~lp-l10n-da/+members#active
>
> It consists almost exclusively (I am not sure about 1 member) of Ubuntu
> translation team members.


Yes there is quite a lot a overlap in personnel, which means that we
just happen to have a lot a people that are interested both in the
translation of Ubuntu and in the translations of small projects on
Launchpad. That does not change the fact that they are two different
groups with two completely different purposes. If you are interested
only in translating Ubuntu, then you become a member of that group. If
you are interested only translating independent projects in the
Launchpad but want nothing to do with with Ubuntu because you are a
Fedora user, than you only become a member of the other group. We do
not require people to join both groups and that is an important point.

>> As for quality. You are correct that restricting translations to a
>> group like launchpad translators, does not _guarantee_ that the
>> translations will become of high quality, but it does give the teams,
>> that are willing to make an effort to produce the high quality
>> translations, the tools (and control) to make that possible, tools
>> that don't have if the translations is open.
>
> Let's see the stats. LP-translators is a confederation of 42 teams. These
> teams have to manage 276 projects. Most of the teams consist of 3-4
> members (taking into account even people with zero karma).
>
> What quality control are you talking about? They cannot even review the
> propositions.

You need only 2 people to implement a proper proofreading workflow. As
for how many projects they can cover? The groups of Danish translators
that maintain the GNOME desktop translation (about 80 modules), is
about a 3 people, doing so with a complete
translate-proofread-correct-integrate workflow and with a few people
extra we also take case of quite a few of the modules in the
gnome-extras. But you are correct, teams of 3-4 people might not be
able to review all of the suggestions by drive-by-translators, but in
the process of proofreading and hopefully getting into some dialogue
with the people that suggested the translations they might get more
proofreaders and so on.

In any case, when you say: "They cannot even review the propositions."
then you make an assumption that I don't agree with and that is that
they indeed need to get around to all the modules. I will much rather
have a program be in English than poorly translated to Danish, so when
we (and the other teams) have the resources to make the quality
translations then we will, otherwise the remain in English and that is
as it should be.

> This can be clearly seen by the mailing list:
>
> https://lists.launchpad.net/launchpad-translators/
>
> There are no messages for months. LiVES developer asked them to give LiVES
> new translations:
>
> https://lists.launchpad.net/launchpad-translators/msg00136.html
>
> and... The only 100% translation was given by the guy who did not even
> know about LP-translators.
>
> https://translations.launchpad.net/lives/trunk/+pots/lives

If now one replied then it is probably because no one in interested in
translating LiVES. It is a video editor, not something that Linux is
known for doing well, so it can't be a surprise that it is difficult
to find translators. But that does not mean that they would be better
off accepting the translations of anyone that just happens to drop by,
totally independent of language and grammar skills.

> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Let's analyze the current state of affairs.
>
> Scilab top contributors
>
> Rui Hirokawa 1450 points  - not a member of lp-translators
> Fido 900 points - member of lp-translators
> Yuri Chornoivan 707 points - not a member of lp-translators
> Ondrej Staš 701 points - not a member of lp-translators
> Carml 700 points - member of lp-translators
>
> Well, I propose that Kenneth (1 point of Scilab karma) send a message to
> all the current Scilab translators with the larger Scilab karma and
> propose them to join lp-translators.

That is what I just did and you can think about that exactly what you
want I don't care much. I did that one string just to see if it was
actually true that indeed anyone could write strings there directly,
but you see, I wont contribute as much as a single string to any
project, let alone ask my team to help proofread it, if it is not
under some level of control, if I cannot be assured that our hard and
thorough work cannot just be overwritten by someone that just happens
to pass by. That is the way that I choose to work. If Scilab decides
to do it differently, then I wont loose any sleep over that. I'll just
find another project that does care about quality. There are plenty of
projects that are hungry for translator contributions.

> To be serious, if you do not want to loose half (at least) of Scilab
> translators, please change the policy to "Structured"

Structured wont make a difference in the case where
launchpad-translators have inactive language teams. As I already
explained, the difference between structures and restricted is what
happens if there is no team for a language.

> or "Open".  LP-translators cannot give nor quantity, neither quality of translations,
> but the current translators can.

I disagree but the is off course the choice if the Scilab teamm

> If you are still not sure, please create "Scilab translators" and approve
> its members by yourself

That is the next best solution. This will allow me the control I need
in order for med to contribute. Personally it is not a solutions I
like, but that is because I contribute to many projects and the
bureaucracy if maintaining a group for each one of them is not
something absolutely horrible.

> or give open permissions.

see above

> Restrictions like
> "lp-translators" do not work. It can be easily seen on the Chromium
> example. These restrictions just narrow down the number of translators
> with no quality advantage.

Yes, they will narrow down the number of contributors, but as for
quality I don't think you are right. I have about half a decade worth
of experience with translating free software so I know the kind of and
amount of errors you will find in a proofreading. But as I said
earlier, assigning the translation to a group and making it restricted
or structured off course does not guarantee higher quality, that
depends on the members, but it does give those of us that care about
quality the tools we need.

Regards Kenneth
sylvestre sylvestre
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Re: Settings for the scilab localization in LaunchPadTranslations

Le vendredi 06 mai 2011 à 11:01 +0200, Kenneth Nielsen a écrit :
> If Scilab decides
> to do it differently, then I wont loose any sleep over that. I'll just
> find another project that does care about quality. There are plenty of
> projects that are hungry for translator contributions.
We are interested by translator contributions... It is something I
cannot myself :)
I am trying to understand both points of view and to find a consensus.


> > To be serious, if you do not want to loose half (at least) of Scilab
> > translators, please change the policy to "Structured"
>
> Structured wont make a difference in the case where
> launchpad-translators have inactive language teams. As I already
> explained, the difference between structures and restricted is what
> happens if there is no team for a language.
>
> > or "Open".  LP-translators cannot give nor quantity, neither quality of translations,
> > but the current translators can.
>
> I disagree but the is off course the choice if the Scilab teamm
I tend to agree that people more involved in teams will produce better translations before of their involvements.
However, AFAIK, launchpad restricted introduces to much "constraints"
for new comers.
Don't forget that most of Scilab users are not geeks but mathematicians
and physicists.

> > If you are still not sure, please create "Scilab translators" and approve
> > its members by yourself
>
> That is the next best solution. This will allow me the control I need
> in order for med to contribute.
OK. I like this potential good solution. Any one has an objection for
this solution ?

Thanks


Kenneth Nielsen Kenneth Nielsen
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Re: Settings for the scilab localization in LaunchPad Translations

In reply to this post by Ihor Rokach
2011/5/5 Ihor Rokach <[hidden email]>:
> Yuri,
>
> I agree with you totally. Most of the Open Source translation projects
> were, are and will be the one-man ones.

Joining a team in a gathering group like Launchpad translators, will
(if you get the team of the ground) allow you to get help with the
proofreading, turning it into an at least 2 man job. I have
contributed to jmol, rednotebook, Ubuntu Pay and others in this way me
translating and someone else proofreading or the other way around and
it works just fine.

> Idea of creation of so called
> 'translation groups'  maybe could be useful for some projects,
> however, is totally senseless in the Scilab case. Actually it adds
> nothing to the quality of translation of Scilab or even decrease it
> because it kills effort of causal translators which help us by
> correction of one or two strings only.

You can't do proper QA by a casual effort.

> These people need to have easy
> and simple access to the translation interface, otherwise they simply
> will not participate in the translation process.

Making translations something that you can contribute to with this
kind of hit-and-run contributions is a huge mistake. I don't know who
ever came up with that idea but it is horrible. Translations, just
like programming or documentations writing, requires a little more
effort that that to do it right. That was the way the Launchpad
started out and they have now realized that effect that has on quality
and therefore now, still allow it, but recommends restrictions after
the upstart phase

> I know examples of the projects with completely restrict-less access
> to the translation interface which are extremely successful. See for
> example SMath Studio (freeware Mathcad clone) translation interface at
>
> http://smath.info/translator/

Success in terms of what? Quantity I'll believe, quality, not likely.

> If Launchpad team do not understand this it would be better for
> Sylvestre to move Scilab translation to the another place.

You can run it in any way you want in Launchpad, even despite the
recommendations.


Regards Kenneth
Kenneth Nielsen Kenneth Nielsen
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Re: Settings for the scilab localization in LaunchPadTranslations

In reply to this post by Rodolfo Ribeiro Gomes
2011/5/6 Rodolfo <[hidden email]>:
> 2011/5/5 Sylvestre Ledru <[hidden email]>:
>> Until we sorted this out, I rollback to "Structured" like it use to be.
>
> Thank you. I know Brazilian Ubuntu/TP translation team has very bad
> quality work at the moment: incoherence, some bad mistranslations,
> mispells, hurry over quality.

As I have already mentioned, changing it to structured wont make a
difference in the case of inactive or "bad" teams. If a team exists
for your language within the group assigned to the translation, then
the translations for that language will be restricted to that team
whether you use restricted or structured. It only makes it open for
the languages that does not have a team within the group.

> I've been working hard the last two years in order to control the
> quality and coherence here for portuguese brasilian.
>
> Att,
> Rodolfo
>
Kenneth Nielsen Kenneth Nielsen
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Re: Settings for the scilab localization in LaunchPadTranslations

In reply to this post by sylvestre
2011/5/6 Sylvestre Ledru <[hidden email]>:
> Le vendredi 06 mai 2011 à 11:01 +0200, Kenneth Nielsen a écrit :
>> If Scilab decides
>> to do it differently, then I wont loose any sleep over that. I'll just
>> find another project that does care about quality. There are plenty of
>> projects that are hungry for translator contributions.
> We are interested by translator contributions... It is something I
> cannot myself :)
> I am trying to understand both points of view and to find a consensus.

Sure. I was just saying to underline that I am not some nut out on a
crusade. It was not a threat, just a fact about how I work. I, like my
team, and like many other have limited resources. I translate on a
volunteer basis and I only have limited spare time. Therefore I can
only contribute to a limited number projects and so I simply use these
things as some of the criteria I use to select which one to contribute
to.

>> > To be serious, if you do not want to loose half (at least) of Scilab
>> > translators, please change the policy to "Structured"
>>
>> Structured wont make a difference in the case where
>> launchpad-translators have inactive language teams. As I already
>> explained, the difference between structures and restricted is what
>> happens if there is no team for a language.
>>
>> > or "Open".  LP-translators cannot give nor quantity, neither quality of translations,
>> > but the current translators can.
>>
>> I disagree but the is off course the choice if the Scilab teamm
> I tend to agree that people more involved in teams will produce better translations before of their involvements.
> However, AFAIK, launchpad restricted introduces to much "constraints"
> for new comers.
> Don't forget that most of Scilab users are not geeks but mathematicians
> and physicists.

Well, since there is a Danish team in launchpad translators Structures
or Restricted wont make a bit of difference for me. Lets just make
sure we all understand what the difference is, see some of my other
mails.

>> > If you are still not sure, please create "Scilab translators" and approve
>> > its members by yourself
>>
>> That is the next best solution. This will allow me the control I need
>> in order for med to contribute.
>
> OK. I like this potential good solution. Any one has an objection for
> this solution ?

Well as I wrote above, unnecessary bureaucracy is also one of the
criteria that I use to select projects that I want to contribute to.
But it is not as strict a requirement of mine, in those cases I
determine it on a case to case basis dependent on how much I want to
contribute to the given project. I e.g. participate in vlc and pidgin
translations, even though they insist on using their own
infrastructure which means that I get added a few more email lists to
my subscriptions, which I don't really like.

However, before you make such a change you should understand how it
will work. The following will happen. Common for restricted and
structured is that if you do assign a team or person within that group
to the translations into a language, then it will be restricted to
that team or person (so people casually dropping by cannot
contribute). If you don't assign a person or team to the translation
into a language, then the translation into that language will be open
to all. If you make it a policy not assign anybody to the languages
and use structured then the result is the same as open, and you might
as well keep that.

Regards Kenneth
Yuri Chornoivan Yuri Chornoivan
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Re: Settings for the scilab localization in LaunchPadTranslations

If the above makes Danish translation of Scilab possible, I agree with any Kenneth suggestion as long as Ukrainian one will not be touched in any kind.

On the other hand, if there will be no contribution from Danish team I think the decision to choose stricter rules to be canceled as no other language team expressed the will to change the rules.
Yuri Chornoivan Yuri Chornoivan
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Re: Settings for the scilab localization in LaunchPad Translations

In reply to this post by Kenneth Nielsen
> 2011/5/5 Ihor Rokach <[hidden email]>:
>  > Yuri,
>  >
>  > I agree with you totally. Most of the Open Source translation projects
>  > were, are and will be the one-man ones.
>  
>  Joining a team in a gathering group like Launchpad translators, will
>  (if you get the team of the ground) allow you to get help with the
>  proofreading, turning it into an at least 2 man job. I have
>  contributed to jmol, rednotebook, Ubuntu Pay and others in this way me
>  translating and someone else proofreading or the other way around and
>  it works just fine.

I am KDE and Fedora coordinator and Opera Software official volunteer translator. For sure, I cannot understand what prevents you from doing this now. Just call your reviewers and they correct the mistakes.

Do you want to ban some "bad" guys that ruined your translations? That is easy, file a question on LP. ;)

>  
>  > Idea of creation of so called
>  > 'translation groups'  maybe could be useful for some projects,
>  > however, is totally senseless in the Scilab case. Actually it adds
>  > nothing to the quality of translation of Scilab or even decrease it
>  > because it kills effort of causal translators which help us by
>  > correction of one or two strings only.
>  
>  You can't do proper QA by a casual effort.

Why? I believe that not all of us are professionals in translation. Why casual reviewer (we are all casual reviewers) cannot fix casual translator (do not tell me that you will leave forever and translate Scilab to the end of times)?

>  
>  > These people need to have easy
>  > and simple access to the translation interface, otherwise they simply
>  > will not participate in the translation process.
>  
>  Making translations something that you can contribute to with this
>  kind of hit-and-run contributions is a huge mistake. I don't know who
>  ever came up with that idea but it is horrible. Translations, just
>  like programming or documentations writing, requires a little more
>  effort that that to do it right. That was the way the Launchpad
>  started out and they have now realized that effect that has on quality
>  and therefore now, still allow it, but recommends restrictions after
>  the upstart phase
>  

Well, who can judge who are right 3 Ubuntu translators or 3 KDE translators?

There are no conflicts between Scilab translators. We were working together to make the translations better. But then someone find that we should not give the opportunity to the new translators and reviewers and it appears that there are groups of translators (lp-translators) that know things better but did not translate Scilab because of the wrong rules

>  > I know examples of the projects with completely restrict-less access
>  > to the translation interface which are extremely successful. See for
>  > example SMath Studio (freeware Mathcad clone) translation interface at
>  >
>  > http://smath.info/translator/
>  
>  Success in terms of what? Quantity I'll believe, quality, not likely.

Can you give an example of the faulty translation?

>  
>  > If Launchpad team do not understand this it would be better for
>  > Sylvestre to move Scilab translation to the another place.
>  
>  You can run it in any way you want in Launchpad, even despite the
>  recommendations.
>  
>  
>  Regards Kenneth
>  

Best regards,
Yuri
sylvestre sylvestre
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Re: Settings for the scilab localization inLaunchPadTranslations

In reply to this post by Kenneth Nielsen
Le vendredi 06 mai 2011 à 11:49 +0200, Kenneth Nielsen a écrit :

> 2011/5/6 Sylvestre Ledru <[hidden email]>:
> > Le vendredi 06 mai 2011 à 11:01 +0200, Kenneth Nielsen a écrit :
> >> If Scilab decides
> >> to do it differently, then I wont loose any sleep over that. I'll just
> >> find another project that does care about quality. There are plenty of
> >> projects that are hungry for translator contributions.
> > We are interested by translator contributions... It is something I
> > cannot myself :)
> > I am trying to understand both points of view and to find a consensus.
>
> Sure. I was just saying to underline that I am not some nut out on a
> crusade. It was not a threat, just a fact about how I work. I, like my
> team, and like many other have limited resources. I translate on a
> volunteer basis and I only have limited spare time. Therefore I can
> only contribute to a limited number projects and so I simply use these
> things as some of the criteria I use to select which one to contribute
> to.
Sure!
I am not arguing on it.

> >> > To be serious, if you do not want to loose half (at least) of Scilab
> >> > translators, please change the policy to "Structured"
> >>
> >> Structured wont make a difference in the case where
> >> launchpad-translators have inactive language teams. As I already
> >> explained, the difference between structures and restricted is what
> >> happens if there is no team for a language.
> >>
> >> > or "Open".  LP-translators cannot give nor quantity, neither quality of translations,
> >> > but the current translators can.
> >>
> >> I disagree but the is off course the choice if the Scilab teamm
> > I tend to agree that people more involved in teams will produce better translations before of their involvements.
> > However, AFAIK, launchpad restricted introduces to much "constraints"
> > for new comers.
> > Don't forget that most of Scilab users are not geeks but mathematicians
> > and physicists.
>
> Well, since there is a Danish team in launchpad translators Structures
> or Restricted wont make a bit of difference for me. Lets just make
> sure we all understand what the difference is, see some of my other
> mails.
OK, Danish is OK but as far as I know, some lp teams are empty.

> >> > If you are still not sure, please create "Scilab translators" and approve
> >> > its members by yourself
> >>
> >> That is the next best solution. This will allow me the control I need
> >> in order for med to contribute.
> >
> > OK. I like this potential good solution. Any one has an objection for
> > this solution ?
>
> Well as I wrote above, unnecessary bureaucracy is also one of the
> criteria that I use to select projects that I want to contribute to.
For now, it is what we have, you just need a lp account to contribute to
it.


> However, before you make such a change you should understand how it
> will work. The following will happen. Common for restricted and
> structured is that if you do assign a team or person within that group
> to the translations into a language, then it will be restricted to
> that team or person (so people casually dropping by cannot
> contribute). If you don't assign a person or team to the translation
> into a language, then the translation into that language will be open
> to all. If you make it a policy not assign anybody to the languages
> and use structured then the result is the same as open, and you might
> as well keep that.
OK, thanks for the explanations.
So, a thing I could do could be to try to chat active people (or
identifying them). Chat with them if they agree to join/create a team.
If they are OK, let's go for it. Otherwise, I don't not assign any team
and leave it like now.

How does it sound ?

Sylvestre


Kenneth Nielsen Kenneth Nielsen
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Re: Settings for the scilab localization in LaunchPadTranslations

In reply to this post by Yuri Chornoivan
2011/5/6 Yuri Chornoivan <[hidden email]>:
> If the above makes Danish translation of Scilab possible, I agree with any
> Kenneth suggestion as long as Ukrainian one will not be touched in any kind.
>
> On the other hand, if there will be no contribution from Danish team I think
> the decision to choose stricter rules to be canceled as no other language
> team expressed the will to change the rules.

Don't make this change purely on my account. I cannot and will not
guarantee commitment. As you have already pointed out, I'm not really
a part of your community yet, so I shouldn't really have a say. It was
just a suggestion, you make the decision.
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